G10-SG2 Jane Greene

Great, so, Jane, just in addition to the consent form that you’ve sent me, can I just get your verbal consent that you’re, you’re aware this recording’s going ahead and you’re okay with it and everything?

Yeah, you’ve given me, you’ve given me that information, that’s fine.

Yeah, okay, great. Can you start then just by stating your name and also today’s date?

My name is Jane Greene, well, Jane Prior-Greene, and today’s date is the twenty-eighth, is it?

Twenty-seventh, I think.

Twenty-seventh of August 2000, 2020.

Twenty, yeah. Great, can you state then or, or tell me when and where you were born?

I was born in [indecipherable] Fermanagh in Northern Ireland, 1953.

Sorry, you just broke up a tiny bit there, could you, could you just say that again, in?

I was born in County Fermanagh in Northern Ireland in 1953.

Okay, yeah, that was perfect, I think it was just a problem with my internet, but yeah, that was fine, and so you were born in, in County Fermanagh and then how long did you live there for?

We came to Scotland when I was three and a half.

Right, okay, so that was in sort of the mid-fifties then?

1956.

Yeah, and do you, do you know why your parents chose to leave Northern Ireland?

Well, my mother was from Scotland and my father, workwise my father wasn’t getting the work that he wanted in Northern Ireland, so they de-, they decided to, my mum wanted to come home basically, all the family were here, all her family were here and she just decided, you know, I think, and they also came over for a family wedding, my uncle was getting married and they stayed, then dad bought a house and basically, you know, they just stayed then.

Yeah, so Scotland was kind of–

But also, just, just to elaborate a wee bit, dad’s family were all here too.

Oh okay.

All bar one, all bar one brother and his mother, everyone was here, his, all his siblings were here.

Right, okay, so Scotland was, was quite an obvious choice for them to move to then.

Yeah, because what happened I think was, my grandfather was married twice, his first wife died and his, one of his children from the first marriage came and settled in Glasgow, and so therefore when their sibling, you know, when my dad’s siblings couldn’t get work, which they couldn’t regularly get work at that time in Northern Ireland, they all came to Glasgow for, for work initially and stayed.

Okay, and so did your parents meet in Northern Ireland?

No, my father was actually in Scotland working as well, he had come over to Scotland to work, he, he was working on the buses, the Corporation buses, used to be a bus company in Glasgow called the Corporation bus company and my mother was working on the buses, so [indecipherable] the buses.

Oh right, okay, so they met there–

So the bus situation wasn’t good.

Oh right, okay, so they, they met there and they moved back to Northern Ireland for a time and then moved back over to Scotland?

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, that’s interesting, and so when, when they came back over was your dad working on the buses again?

No, oh sorry, yes, he was, yes, yes, because he had, because he had previous employment then he was reemployed again with Glasgow Corporation, yes.

Okay.

He was a bus conductor.

And what, what about your mum, did she work?

No, no, not in those days, not in the fifties [laughs].

Fair enough, yeah, just–

And I come from a big family, there’s ten of us.

Oh wow.

So, you know, I’m the oldest of ten, so my mother brought up a big family.

Wow, so, so nine siblings, then?

Nine siblings, yes.

That, tell me, tell me a bit about what that was like growing up in that kind of household?

Quite interesting, quite interesting. I have seven sisters and two brothers.

Right, okay, yeah, and they’re, they’re all younger, yeah?

Yeah, they’re all younger, there’s a thirteen-year gap, excuse me, thirteen-year gap between me and the youngest girl.

Right, okay, so, wow, ten in thirteen, fourteen years?

My mother was [laughs]–

[laughs] No wonder she didn’t have time to work.

My mother was, she did work, she did work later on when my younger sisters got up, you know, just small jobs like working for, working in the local offsales, just retail work.

Yeah, sure.

You know, ah ha.

And so whereabouts in Glasgow did your family live then?

We initially stayed in a place called Scotstoun, which was just within the Glasgow boundary.

Right, okay.

[indecipherable] I don’t, I don’t know if you know Glasgow, we have an [indecipherable] called Whiteinch, Scotstoun Whiteinch, and then, my mother came from Clydebank, and my, my father’s family lived in Clydebank, my mother’s family lived in Clydebank, so as the family got bigger they moved to a council house, my, my father had his only flat, but they moved to a council house in Clydebank.

Right okay, and what type of area was Clydebank then, what, what was that, what was it like?

It’s a very industrial area, which when I was a little girl had a lot of industrial, you know, there was a lot of heavy industry, there was the shipyards, if you know anything about the sort of kind of history of, you know, Glasgow had a lot of shipyards and there was a big Singer factory.

Right, yeah.

And where we lived we looked down onto the Singer factory, but all of that industry was decimated in the seventies.

Yeah, mm hmm, and you said you had lots of family living nearby?

[indecipherable], sorry what did you say, Jack?

Sorry, you said you, you had a lot of family living nearby?

Yes, aye, yeah, yeah, we all, we had all my mother’s family and we had my father’s three sisters.

So you would have seen them regularly, then?

Yes, uh huh, yeah.

And you went to school in Clydebank, was it, yeah?

I went to school in Clydebank, yes, uh huh.

And you enjoyed school and stuff?

Yeah, yeah, uh huh, yes, I did.

As much as any kid enjoys school.

As much as any kid, as much as any kid in the sixties [laughs].

Yeah, for sure.

The sixties and seventies [laughs].

[laughs] And I’m interested, were there many other, like, Irish or Northern Irish people living in the area at the time, apart from your, like, immediate or extended family?

Well, Clyde-, Clydebank, just to put you in the picture, Clydebank is a working-class town, as I said, and it was a ship town, so a lot of Irish people here, there’s a big, there’s a big Irish contingent, mostly from Donegal, there’s not as many from Northern Ireland, but most of my si-, my friends have all got Irish connections, they’re either first-generation Irish or second-generation Irish and it’s mostly from Donegal, and [indecipherable] Society.

What was that, sorry?

There’s a place in, there’s a place in Donegal called Ramelton.

Oh right, okay, yeah.

And then in Clydebank there’s a Ramelton Society.

Oh okay, so quite a lot of–

Yeah, it used to have, we’d meet up and, and they have, like, you know, music nights and various things like that, but, you know, my contacts all had Irish, Irish backgrounds, you know.

Right, okay, that’s interesting so yeah, there would have been quite a lot of, a lot of people from, from Irish backgrounds, but you say not as many from Northern Ireland?

Not as many from Northern Ireland [indecipherable] among my peers, I don’t think there’s anyone I know that comes from Northern Ireland.

Oh right, okay.

But we were on the border, the part of Northern Ireland that I live in, that I come from, is on the border with County Cavan.

Yeah, mm hmm.

You know, so, from sort of border people.

Okay, yeah, and did you, did you visit Northern Ireland much as a child, then?

Yes, we used to go because we had, my granny was still there, my father’s mother and one of his, one of his brothers, and we also had a lot of connections in the area, so yeah, we went every year, and I still do go every year.

Okay, oh you still do, yeah, so, so what–?

Uh huh, yeah, yeah.

What was that, did you enjoy visiting when you were a kid?

Yeah, yes, I did because it was, like, it was just different because we lived in, in a, you know, in a city.

Yeah, sure.

And we were going to a, we were going to the country, from the city to the country, so yeah, [00:10:00] and it was just part and parcel of what we did, we used to go on the, we used to go on the boat.

Yeah, yeah, I was going to ask, so you got the, the boat and then drove over, yeah?

Cos they, when I was little it was a, it was a thing, it was a cattle boat we used to go in [laughs].

Oh really [laughs]?

A Burns and Laird cattle boat, used to go overnight so it was easier to travel with a big family, used to kind of get our cabins and go overnight, you know, then it was a long journey when you got there to get to Fermanagh, you know, getting to Fermanagh, used to enjoy it.

Yeah, yeah, I bet, and so I wanted to ask, like, back in Scotland were your, was the church a big part of your life, did you, did you go to church at all, growing up?

Yeah, well, obviously, yeah, obviously I come from a Roman Catholic background, so yes, I went to a Roman Catholic school, went regularly to church and still go regularly to church, so, yes.

Yeah, okay, yeah.

And because of, be-, because of that, you know, you could probably say that the Irish connection was there as well, you know, like, a couple of my nieces went to Irish dancing and they were Irish dancing, you know, Irish dancing, I mean, they were not so much into the music or anything like that, but certainly yeah, the dancing and the culture in that respect.

And did you, did you do anything like that, or, or any sort of Irish, Irish activities or anything?

Not really, no. I went to a few Irish concerts, but just purely and simply because, because the, my, a couple of my cousins in Ireland do the singing.

Yeah.

So we went, I went a few times to the kind of concerts that some of the, like Nathan

Yeah.

But, [indecipherable], we went to the ceilidhs though, but we’d go to Scottish ceilidhs as well as Irish ceilidhs.

Right, okay, so I’m wondering, like, when you were growing up did you have, like, quite a strong sense of yourself as being Irish or Northern Irish, was that sort of part of your identity?

Well, I would identify myself more as Irish in the general term rather than Northern Irish. I wouldn’t, you know, I don’t have a Northern Irish identity, I have an Irish identity.

Yeah, mm hmm, and that, that was instilled in you kind of–?

Well, in terms of the family background we were always considered Irish, you know, it, it wasn’t really a, an emphasis on Northern Irish.

Yeah, for sure.

If you understand where I’m coming from.

Oh yeah, absolutely [laughs], and so you, so you would have gone to church regularly, like, every, every week then would you?

Uh huh, yeah.

And you enjoyed that?

Yes, well, it was part, it was part of my upbringing, so definitely, yes, uh huh.

Yeah, and which church did you go to?

Just a local church here, just a church called St Stephen’s.

And was, was Clydebank a predominantly Catholic town, then, or was there, was it a mix?

No, I would say that, I would say that [indecipherable] it’s fairly mixed.

Yeah.

You know, we are a mixed family in terms of, you know, marrying and in terms of my siblings and, you know, my nieces and nephews, of whom I’ve got a lot, we’re a very mixed family, both sides of the divide if you like in terms of the, you know, we’re talking about Northern Ireland, both sides of the divide, but my upbringing wasn’t, because I came from Northern Ireland, I don’t think my upbringing was particularly [pauses] sectarian in that respect, can I put it that way.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

You know, there was no mention of, there was no mention of being, being a particular [pauses], I don’t, I don’t know how to express this, but there was no mention of it being particularly, you know, we’re one people and, and, you know, somebody’s different, you know, there wasn’t any of that, not in my family anyway.

Not in your family, yeah. What about, what about more broadly in sort of society, was, I mean–?

Well, obviously yes, I mean, I’ve come across that outside in the working environment and also, you know, I have friends from, you know, both Catholic and Protestant friends, if you like to call it that, but certainly, yes, there’s [indecipherable] strong feelings in a divided city in terms of strong feelings one way or the other.

Yeah, in, in Glasgow, yeah, or in [pauses]–?

It’s, it’s a smaller place than Glasgow, but it has its divisions.

Yeah, for sure.

I would [indecipherable]–

Jane, I’m just having a slight problem, I think it’s on my end with the internet connection, so what I’m going to do is I’m just going to leave the meeting and then come back in, if that’s alright, and see if that makes any difference, so I’ll just be–

Okay, do I need to do anything here?

No, no, if you just stay as you are on your end that’ll be fine. I’ll be about a mi-, a minute or two if that’s okay? [00:16:04] [The two interview audio files were spliced together here].

Well, I’ve started the recorder up again there now, so it’s, hopefully we’ll have a little bit more luck, so yeah, we were kind of talking about divisions and stuff within Scottish society, so, so would there have been, like, when, when you were growing up would there have been tensions between Catholics and Protestants in Clydebank, do you think?

Yeah, yeah, definitely. I’m not into football, but obviously you’ve heard of Celtic and Rangers.

I have, yeah.

And yes, when there’s big games, there is tension and there can be bother, you know, there’s also, I’m not much of a drinker and certainly don’t go to these pubs, but there are what is called pubs that are specifically for Celtic supporters and pubs that are for Rangers supporters, and so definitely I would say avoid them like the plague, also because of the Troubles when the game’s on, when they, when they have what I call grudge matches, it’s best to avoid places like Glasgow cos there’s not, you know, when they get, they get all, when they get drunk and things like that, it’s not pleasant.

Yeah, I’m sure.

You know, but they have, they have tried a lot latterly to eradicate that, it’s a, it’s still a work in progress, there’s zero tolerance for it in terms of sectarian chanting and various things like that, but there are strong links in Glasgow to the Orange Lodge.

Yeah, for sure.

And the sectarian matches, you know, when, when it’s the Twelfth of July and that sort of thing, they have the matches and they can cause tensions, you know.

Yeah, and would that have been something you were aware of, like, when you were growing up in the sixties and seventies and stuff?

Well, I certainly, I certainly was aware of it when I was a little girl, but because I wasn’t really aware that it was what it was, I mean, I didn’t really understand and I remember once when I was maybe about seven or eight and I was standing in Clydebank and people used to stand and watch them, you know, I presume some people to shout insults and other folk to cheer them on, and I remember asking my dad what it was and he said to me that it was the Orangemen and I had no idea what Orangemen were and I said so where do they come from, and he said Ireland, and I said, well, then if they’re Irish can we not join them, cos I thought it was a march, I thought it was a march for Irish people cos I didn’t really know about the division in that sense, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, for sure, that’s interesting, cos you were kind of, like, as you say, you felt Irish, so it was kind of, it must have been a bit confusing, yeah.

Well, they were playing Irish music, the Irish music that I had heard when I was a wee girl and, you know, I just thought, you know, well, if they’re marching and they’re Irish then why am I not marching [laughs], you know, I soon discovered why I wasn’t marching [laughs].

Yeah, so, so when, when did you become more aware of the sort of, the connotations between, behind that sort of culture?

I think, I think as the Troubles started to develop in Northern Ireland, I became aware, I became aware first and foremost that the environment that I stay in when I go to Northern Ireland is predominantly Catholic, and that there is a, a division within that area, and I also became aware of what those Troubles meant to the people in that environment, from one side of the divide, not both sides now, one side, because these were the people that I knew and who it was affecting.

That’s interesting, yeah, so, so when you went to visit, I mean, presumably the Troubles would have started when you were fairly young, so–

Yeah, I was in my teens I think when it first started and we was [indecipherable], was going over in my teens. We didn’t go for a few years because things were pretty bad, but when I started going back there was a high military presence and there was checkpoints, there was searches, there were soldiers coming on the bus, there was the, you know, your bag was looked at everywhere you went, if you were going out into the shops, and there was, there was constant, there was constant awareness that, you know, there was reports of daily bombings and shootings, you know, and one of, there had been a shooting in a relative’s, not, not a very close relative, but a distant relative’s husband got shot in Belfast, he was working in Belfast, and he went into, I don’t know what the story was, but he, he got shot anyway, and was killed.

So that atmosphere of, yeah–

So these, so those kind of, those kind of situations then, I began to realise that I did live in a divided community and it was different from the community that I knew in, in Glasgow and in Scotland.

Yeah, yeah, I was going to say it must have been a big contrast to Scotland, you know, seeing the, the army on the streets and things like that, and did you notice–?

They also, they also used to patrol, for instance, it’s quite a rural area that I stay in and, you know, my uncle used to get very, very annoyed because they would patrol round about, you know, and they would sometimes bring the helicopter down in the field because they had a base in a place called Belcoo. I, I don’t know if you’re familiar with that, so they had a military base in Belcoo, we’re not far from where that is, on the border, and so therefore there was constant patrols and I can remember when I was in my teens one time, well, maybe early twenties, my sister and I, we were going up to Blacklion which is in the County Cavan area, so we took the bus up to Belcoo and we were crossing over the bridge and all of a sudden this big military lorry pulled up and the soldiers all divided and, and suddenly started going into the hedges and we were just terrified, cos we didn’t know what was happening.

Yeah, I bet.

And the, and the guns, you know, which were, like, very threatening looking and we just didn’t know whether we were in the middle of something, you know, and we went in, and they, and they waved us on from where we were standing rooted to the spot in the bridge to go to the, so we were going from the North to the South on the bridge, and, you know, it was just very scary.

Yeah, I’m sure.

One of my, one of my scariest moments I would say in that respect.

And what sort of things would you have done just, like, for leisure when you were over in Northern Ireland? Would you have, would you have gone out to many, or gone and visited many places?

Well, locally, we would go into Enniskillen, which was the nearest town, but in terms of socialising we tended to go into the No-, into the South cos the pubs were open [laughs], the pubs were open longer and the dancing was in a place called Bundoran [laughs].

Okay, yeah, yeah.

So, you know, we would go to the, we would go to Bundoran, you know, or we would just go out round about, but mostly we stayed locally, apart from the weekend.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure.

You know, and then when you go out with the cousins, you know, to the, to the, but it was always to the South we would go because that’s where the, you know, they would, the music and things like that, you know, well, the music, the music that my cousins listened to, that type of thing.

And was it, I guess it might have been, like, a more relaxed atmosphere in the South as well, would, do you think?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, things were slightly different. There was a, there was a longer, there was a longer, you know, the pubs, the pubs were, like, you know, open longer and things were kind of more relaxed, you went into little shops that were both shops and pubs at the same time, you know, and when you went to the, you know, when you went to the dance it’d go on to two, three o’clock in the morning. Northern Ireland at that point in time was very, very closed down because of the, the situation with the Troubles, you know.

Yeah, mm hmm, for sure.

So, socialising was always a wee bit, was always a wee bit, was always a wee bit difficult because you, everybody was a bit suspicious of you, if you had a, definitely if you had a different accent, you know.

Yeah, how did people react to your accent in Northern Ireland? [00:26:04]

Well, in the area, in the home area that I come from, they didn’t, you know, they didn’t make any remarks, but in the town and things like that I think, you know, they would sometimes say oh you’re from Scotland, but they would, you know, they wouldn’t, they wouldn’t pass too many remarks, not in, in, not in Enniskillen, you know.

Yeah, did you ever get a sense that they were trying to work out, like, what side you were from or anything?

Possibly, possibly, yeah. I remember, but not me personally, but my friends were over and they would be, they come from the Sou-, the Southern Irish background and I remember they were staying in, they were staying in the, locally, and somebody asked them if they were English and they were kind of, they, they asked them a lot of questions about where they came from and they felt quite intimidated.

Yeah, sure.

You know.

I think there was, during that time, a kind of suspicion towards anyone who’s an outsider, sort of thing.

Yeah, uh huh, I mean, personally I wouldn’t, you know, I mean, I don’t really, in terms of religion or that sort of thing, I don’t see one, and I was very guarded, you know, I would be very guarded about who I was talking to, just in case they didn’t like you [laughs].

Yeah, sure.

Not to put too fine a point on it, just in case, you know, you, you, you, they felt that you were, they didn’t want to be associated with you, because in Northern Ireland there is a very definite, you keep to your own, which I discovered as I grew up, but I didn’t know that as a child, and it certainly wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t reinforced in my family, but going back and forward to Northern Ireland, I know that you keep to your own culture, your own people.

And do you think that’s different to how things are in, or how things were in Scotland then?

Probably not really because as you grow up in a culture in Scotland you do tend to mix with the same people and you mix with school friends that you went to school with and you kind of do tend to relate, it’s not that much different, you do tend to stay with your own connections, I think when you go to work is when it’s different.

Right, okay.

Because then you, then you make other connections from a different background and other friends.

Yeah, that’s interesting, and so would your parents or your peers or anybody, would they have talked about the Troubles much, or, or would they have talked about politics or anything like that?

Yeah, well, I mean, it did concern both my, my, my father’s side of the family very much so, because of the impact to, to the people over, you know, their relatives in Ireland and obviously, you know, they had strong feelings about how it was impacting on their identity in Ireland, you know.

So would your, would your dad and stuff and his family, would they have all been Irish nationalists then, like, from a political standpoint, do you think?

Yeah, probably.

Yeah, yeah, for sure.

[laughs] I know that, I know that that, I know that that political affiliation is in the family, put it that way [laughs].

For sure, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, no, I’m, I’m just curious as to, like, the extent to which they sort of maintained an interest in, in Northern Ireland whilst, whilst they were sort of living away.

But in saying that [pauses], they’re divided in the sense that, you know, they have their, their loyalties to, you know, an Irish nationalism if you like, but also because of only knowing, not so much my father’s generation, but certainly the generation today, of only knowing a Northern Ireland, you know, it’s a wee bit like they’re divided between whether it would be good for Northern Ireland to be part of an Irish community or whether they want to retain the identity they’ve got.

Yeah, no, I think, I think that’s, that’s definitely the case, especially amongst a newer generation of people in Northern Ireland as well, you know, like.

Yeah, but what they don’t want is the old divides, you know, you know, if, if I think of the young ones that I know in Ireland today, they’re more European-minded than, you know, inward-thinking in that sense.

Yeah, no, that makes sense, and so you said you would have visited Northern Ireland around once a year, then?

Uh huh, we went, we, we’d go over in the holiday periods, maybe once, twice a year sometimes, certainly myself as, because I work in edu-, I’ve work in education, I was an early years officer, so I had a lot of holidays and would maybe go over more than once.

Okay, and y-, and would you have stayed for quite a long period of time?

Yeah, two to three weeks, yeah, uh huh.

Okay, yeah, so yeah, you spent, would have spent quite a lot of time there, then?

Yeah.

And apart from that incident with the soldiers was, is there anything else that, that stood out as something that kind of rammed home that the Troubles was happening, if you like?

Oh yeah, well, I mean, as I say, there was the barriers in the town, the bullet holes in the building, the constant searches every place you went, there was an, a feeling of always being on your guard. There was the, you know, when you went anywhere, for instance, at night time, you were asking about socialising, at night time if you were going in the car, certainly this is now happening when it was the Troubles, being stopped and asked for identity, where were you going, where had you been, where were you going to, what was the purpose of where you were going, all of these kind of things, going, even travelling over, with coming over on the bus, the soldiers stopping the bus coming in, going up and down the bus, looking at everybody, you know, didn’t ask you for your identity there, but there was a very, very military presence in the place, and also, you know, I can remember another time we went to Bundoran for a day out, it was Sunday, we were going in the car, a huge big tailback of traffic, soldiers on the road, military vehicles, and there had been a shooting up ahead, you know, so it was, like, constantly at the back of your mind that everything was, you know, to be on kind of the alert, if you like, you know, every time you went out.

Yeah, for sure.

You know, I remember another, I was going to say, I remember another time we missed the bus and my sister and I were coming over, we missed the bus and we had to stay in Belfast, and we went to a boarding house and I remember being very nervous because there was a kind of, there was a bombing or something, everywhere was all boarded up and we were, only went overnight, and there was, there was a, an incident during the night, you know, so I couldn’t wait to get out. I’d, I’ve never really ever spent an awful lot of time in Belfast, but at that point in time I couldn’t wait to get out of Belfast.

Yeah.

Just because I just didn’t feel safe. I felt safer in Fermanagh than I did in Belfast.

Yeah, I was going to ask what the atmosphere was like in Belfast, cos it must have been, I guess that was kind of the epicentre in a lot of ways?

Yeah, uh huh, I mean, personally I, I didn’t spend any time in Belfast. The first time I really spent any time in Belfast was a few years back, maybe about, about ten years back, we came, my niece, as I say, was an Irish dancer, and we would came over for the world championships in Belfast and we spent three days there and it was actually quite a revelation because I had never actually been in Belfast for any length of time and I thought it was actually quite lovely, and, and it was so different from what it had been like in the seventies, you know, and early eighties, [00:36:04] you know, when the Troubles were on it was just, it was like a normal place, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, absolutely, I mean, I’ve, I’ve lived in Belfast for a good few years and yeah, it’s, it’s totally different to what you might expect.

Yeah, I mean, we went out, we went, we went out, you know, for a drink, and we went out to a little pub that we found and, you know, with students in it, and it was just a lovely atmosphere and there was a nice buzz about the place, and it just felt so so different from what it had been when I was a lot younger.

Yeah, no, I can, I can only really imagine what it, what it used to be like cos I’ve only experienced the sort of, the new Belfast, if you like, but certainly seeing the, the videos and stuff, it looks like it was just a completely different city.

I mean, when, you know, when we were travelling back and forward at the height of the Troubles, I would have been horrified to stay in Belfast. I mean, the one time I did stay was the only time I stayed and for me it was just a point of, you went there, the, the boat came in, you went and you got the bus and you got out of it as fast as you could go. I know that sounds, that’s not nice, but that’s the way it was.

Well, I think it’s understandable with everything that was, was going on there and I think the thing with Belfast as well is that there’s a lot of flashpoints as well and there was a lot of areas where you could, the atmosphere could change very quickly as well, so, yeah, no, I think it definitely makes sense, and would there have been a lot of security on, on, like, the boat and stuff like that?

Yeah, there was. I mean, you, you went, it’s slightly the way that the aeroplanes are now, you went through checkpoints, there was military checkpoints, very often you would be pulled aside, never happened to me, but I did see it happening to other people, but you would be pulled aside if you looked, well, I suppose if they felt you looked suspicious, and questioned, you know, where were you going, where were you going to, how long were you going for, what were, what were your connections to where you were going.

Hmm, yeah.

You know, all of that sort of thing, so it, there was always a, there was, you, you kind of got used to the fact that you knew that that was going to happen, so you would be prepared for it, but it was annoying nonetheless, you know.

Yeah, I can imagine, especially if you’re just going over for a, a family holiday sort of thing.

Yeah, yeah, uh huh, especially when they would say, well, you know, why are you going and where are you going to and, you know, who do you know there and how long are you going to be there, that type of thing.

Yeah, and I suppose you kind of have to tell them as well–

Well, yeah, I mean–

You can’t just tell them to get lost.

No, they were officious looking, so you, you, you didn’t say what you really felt, but, you know, I mean, it was, it felt very much, you know, very much as if, you know, you had no right, no right to be, your freedom of movement was restricted, you know.

No, that makes sense, and so, so kind of going back to your life in Scotland then, you, you obviously would have gone to secondary school and stuff. Did you have an idea of, of what you wanted to do when you left school?

Yeah, kind of, more or less. I was initially intending to go into nursing and ended up training as a, what’s called a nursery nurse, but now we call it an early years, early childhood educator.

Yeah, sure.

And so I’ve spent all, I’ve spent all my working life being that, working with very young children.

You must have enjoyed that then, yeah?

Ah yeah, I did, yeah, I was attached to, I was in a primary school, in a nur-, in a nursery class in a primary school, started off in a day nursery and then worked in a standalone nursery, but latterly before I retired I had spent thirty years in a pri-, in a primary school, so very familiar with the education process, put it that way [laughs].

Yeah, I’m sure, and so, it was interesting as well that you mentioned earlier on that you kind of, you got to meet a more, a broader range of people once you entered the workplace.

I did, but, in the initial stages, yes, but latterly my work has been in a, a Catholic primary.

Oh right, okay.

So therefore, and the area that I was probably working in would be a predominantly Catholic area, in terms of the, in, in terms of the environment of the structure of Clydebank, you know, and, and the reason I’m saying that is cos there’s a lot of Irish families in the area.

Yeah, mm hmm.

Which is, you know.

Well, the one thing, one thing that I’ve kind of got a sense of, I’m not sure how much you would know about this is that the, the education system in Scotland, even though you have sort of Catholic schools and things, it’s, it’s less segregated, for want of a better word, than, than you’ve got in Northern Ireland.

Yeah, I know, I mean, even in, you know, only going from what I know from my own background in education, but going from, you know, going, from the Troubles, but also from the Troubles that Glasgow has itself in terms of sectarianism and there’s been a big, big drive to not have, you know, the same emphasis on, you know, there’s been a more inclusivity with, with cultural education if you like, you know, making it more open to other cultures cos we are a multicultural society nowadays and we do have to embrace other cultures and, you know, because I’ve worked very predominantly with young children, we’ve always, you know, we are, we were, it was a non-, it was a non-denominational, though I was in a Catholic school and it was a Catholic, it was a pre-school nursery, it was a non-denominational nursery, so we had an equal divide of children from both sides of the sectarian divide and we fed, we fed three pre-, three feeder primaries, two non-denominational ones and one Catholic one.

Right, okay, yeah, that’s interesting cos it sounds like there was, like, a big, you know, concerted drive to kind of make the system more integrated.

Uh huh, yeah, and given, given nowadays that, you know, there’s a lot of things have to be taken into account, especially working with young children because if you educate from the very young then hopefully you’ll have that impa-, you know, you’ll have that impact as people get older, it’s about embracing other cultures and other ethnicities.

Yeah.

You know, and even, you know, other genders nowadays, as well.

Yeah, for sure, yeah, cos I think in Northern Ireland it’s still, like, ninety-five per cent of primary kids go to a school that’s almost exclusively Catholic or Protestant and I think that’s, that’s one of the reasons that people have pinpointed that’s sort of maintaining that kind of divide, but, yeah, no, it, it is interesting the way you say that it’s, it’s kind of, there’s been a deliberate effort to be more open and I think that’s kind of manifested in terms of mixed marriages and stuff as well.

Yeah, I think, speaking from a, a Scottish perspective because culturally there’s been always the Tro-, the Troubles, with the football being the biggest division in Scotland, there’s been a zero tolerance which is quite rigidly enforced about sectarian songs, which both sides do have sectarian songs, sec-, sectarian, you know, doing, you know, banning sectarian insults and chants and all that caper and also the pu-, the pubs nowadays, certainly the pubs that the young people go to try to discourage any football talks, anything that would inflame tensions. For instance, in, in nursery we never allowed the little boys to come in in sectarian football tops, i.e. Celtic tops or Ranger tops, they could come in in a Manchester United top, but [laughs], or something of that ilk, but they couldn’t come in in a Celtic or a Rangers top and we had no talk of football in that sense.

Did any, any parents or anything ever complain about that, or was that, was that ever controversial, any, yeah–?

Oh yeah, yeah, uh huh, yeah, because, because our nursery was housed, in the early days, not latterly, and before I retired things had changed a lot in the, in terms of people’s perception, but in the early days when I started working in the nursery there was a wee bit of, you know, this nursery’s in a Catholic school, I don’t want my child getting any indoctrination, as they put it, so we had to [00:46:04] really be very, very clear that the nursery wasn’t going to indoctrinate anyone, that we had a, a non-denominational policy, which is a West Dunbartonshire policy.

Okay, that’s interesting. I think you mentioned that sort of, yeah, people in your family have kind of been more open to things like mixed marriages and stuff, for want of a better term again, as well, like, marrying outside. Is that–?

Uh huh, yeah, I mean, among, among my siblings, yeah, we’re about half and half, and among my nieces and nephews I would say were definitely half and half, so just to, my nephew, my nephew put his, there’s a Celtic-Rangers match on there recently, on Facebook, my nephew put his little boy in his Rangers top and his sister, whose husband is a Celtic supporter, put his little boy in his Rangers outfit, his Celtic outfit, and they posted a picture of the two cousins who are very fond of one another decked out in the gear [laughs].

That’s really interesting.

You know, so there’s, like, the kind of rivalry that, that, you know, which stems from football, but because we’re all family members and siblings some of them, it’s just a, it’s just ribbing as opposed to anything, you know, it’s–

Yeah, there’s no hate, hatred there or anything.

No, no.

And what about yourself, do you have a family or anything?

No, no, no, I’m not marr-, I’m not married [laughs].

Oh fair enough, yeah.

I’m not married, so, no family [laughs].

Yeah, and do your, do your nieces and nephews and brothers and sisters and stuff, do they, do they all kind of have a sense of themselves as being Irish as well, do you think?

No, I would say probably my younger siblings definitely have a sense of being Scottish, you know, they were all, they were born in Scotland and there’s, there’s a, a very, very strong division about being Scottish, you know. I would say quite a lot of them, you know, in terms of what they identify here in Scotland as we identify, probably quite a few of them identify as Scottish nationalists.

Right, okay, mm hmm.

You know, which is funny [laughs].

Yeah, it’s different, there’s a lot of talk about the sort of links between–

Since you get, you know, probably being brought, if I’d, probably been brought up in Ireland I would have identified myself as Irish nationalist, and in Scotland it’s, you know, because I don’t know how much you know about Scotland in that sense, but there is a very strong Scottish identity in Scotland.

Yeah, absolutely, and, and it’s, yeah, it’s interesting because obviously there’s divisions within Scotland, but then there’s a kind of a more of a unifying sense of Scottishness that’s emerging, particularly I think, yeah, with the growth of the independence movement and stuff like that as well.

Uh huh.

And there’s been talk about, you know, the links between Scottish nationalism and Irish nationalism and the similarities, if there are any similarities between those two as well.

I wouldn’t, possibly in that sense, but I mean, I don’t, you know, I think Scotland has a strong identity in its own right as, as a country, you know, and yeah, I mean, there is a predominantly, you know, there’s, there’s quite a strong link between Ireland and Scotland, particularly in this area, the west of Scotland, but I would say there, there’s a stronger link in the west of Scotland to Northern Ireland than there is to, well, it’s kind of half and half to Northern Ireland and to Southern Ireland, but I think when it comes to the Scottish identity, people in Scotland feel, you know, they feel very much, you know, if people were to ask me what’s my nationality I probably would say Irish-Scottish, you know.

Yeah, I guess that’s a neat way of, like, reflecting your, your background though as well.

Uh huh, because obviously I’ve been educated in Scotland and have lived in Scotland and, you know, it’s what I know, it’s the culture I know now.

Yeah, you’ve got a Scottish accent.

And I’ve got a Scottish accent [laughs], and I’ve got a Scottish accent [laughs].

Yeah, and you, you said you would have continued to visit Northern Ireland a lot as an adult then as well, yeah, have you noticed it, I mean, I mean, you must have done I suppose, have you noticed it changing over the years?

Oh yes, I have, yeah, I’ve, I’ve I think the changes have been very, very good and I’ve noticed, you know, very much an easing of tension and freedom of movement, and, and industry in Northern Ireland, you know. People had left Northern Ireland, young people had left Northern Ireland to go elsewhere because they didn’t feel comfortable, maybe, wanting to bring their children up in that environment, they’d went abroad, or they’d come to Scotland if they had connections, but I think people are going back now. Young people particularly want to live in their own country, they want to live within their own family circle, and so, and also I think employment prospects have been much better. I mean, my father’s, and his siblings all came out of Ireland to get work basically and brought families up here because the prospects were better, whereas all my young cousins that are over there, all my younger cousins, they’re all working in Northern Ireland, they’re all living in Northern Ireland and they’re all bringing up families in Northern Ireland and they’re all doing very well for themselves. I think a lot of that has got to do with, I don’t know what’ll happen now, but a lot of that had to do with being in the Common Market as well.

Yeah, for sure.

And the bene-, and the benefits that brought to Northern Ireland.

Hmm, yeah, no, definitely, and there has been a lot of, of European investment in Northern Ireland, for sure.

Yeah.

I‘m interested, sort of going back a bit, just to what you were saying there about your dad and stuff. Do you know why he found it so difficult to, to get a job in Northern Ireland back then, was, was it just the economic situation, or do you think there was any, any hint of discrimination?

No, no, to, to be truthful it was the sectarian situation, you know, I mean, if you were an Irish Catholic, which my father and his siblings were, the kind of jobs you got were not the kind of jobs you necessarily wanted. I mean, for instance, my aunts all went into service, and my father obviously, you know, he worked on the trains in Northern Ireland, but, you know, that, if they wanted to move on and get more jobs with a better prospect, they weren’t going to get them at that point in time in Northern Ireland. My uncle who stayed, he came to Scotland as well, but he went back to look after his mother cos he never married, but he got a job with the Forestry Commission which was quite unusual in the fifties.

Yeah, I can imagine.

You know, but he was, you know, he worked them for thirty odd years, they ended up getting an, an MBE I think it was or something like that, you know, I’ve got his medal there, but he got a recognition for his work with the Forestry Commission and his years spent with them, but he was probably [coughs], excuse me, at the time one of the few Catholics in that environment.

Right, okay, and did your dad ever talk about sort of growing up and his life in Northern Ireland to you, did he speak much about it?

No, I think he had a very happy childhood, you know, it was a bit of a struggle because his mum, his, my granny was a widow from her forties, and my father’s, my father’s father was, my grandpa was older, and my father’s father passed away when he was ten, so they all had to go out to work, they all did get work, but it was kind of service jobs, but they all went out to work very early and then, you know, it was probably a bit of a struggle for my granny, but growing up, I mean, they were happy, they went, the vi-, the village school they went to, it was a non-denominational school, and because it was a rural area, both Catholics and Protestants went to it, you know, so they grew up alongside people from a, from a different background, but they didn’t mix with them.

Yeah, I suppose the social activities would have been very different.

Yeah, uh huh, you know, but I remember my uncle saying that, cos I wo-, I would ask my uncle, you know, [00:56:04] during the Troubles, I used to ask my uncle what it was like when he was younger and things like that and, you know, I remember him saying if, like, one of the neighbours died who would be a Protestant, they would go to the funeral, but they wouldn’t go into the church, just to pay respect to the people because they knew the people, and he said no, they weren’t your enemy, he said, because you would talk to them and pass the time of day with them, he said, but you didn’t mix with them.

That is interesting, it’s kind of like they lived alongside each other, but not with each other sort of–

Yeah, they lived alongside each other, but they lived in different communities–

That’s a good way of putting it.

You know.

And so kind of then moving on to, like, the end of the, or hopefully the, the end of the conflict, I’m wondering how closely you followed the news about sort of the peace process and, and things like that in the, in the nineties, if, if you were interest-, if you were interested in the political side of things?

Yeah, yeah, I was, uh huh, yeah, I’ve always been kind of interested in that, you know, current affairs type of situation, and I was interested, I was glad that it would ha-, you know, I was glad to see that it had come about, I was happy that it would happen, you know, because I just felt that, you know, generations couldn’t grow up in that environment, it was just destroying the country, and, you know, I was a wee tiny, tiny bit sceptical as to whether it would work, if people would, you know, take a chance and, and, you know, go ahead and, and allow the politicians to be politicians in the sense of trying to get what they wanted for their communities, you know, but there’s always going to be troublemakers and there still is troublemakers.

Yeah, absolutely.

So there’s still work to be done, but I think, you know, the younger people have got a different, you know, people of your generation have got a different, you know, outlook and I don’t think they’re going to go back to what they had before, you know, I hope they don’t.

You would hope not, yeah.

Yeah, for sure, and was your dad still around when the peace process was happening?

No, my father died fairly young, he was only sixty-seven when he passed away, so he was there for a wee bit of the peace process, but had passed away before he seen it coming to fruition, you know, but my uncle and my aunts, they were happy to see it going ahead and, although coming from the background they came from and also experiencing what they’d experienced over the years, they didn’t have a lot of confidence in things changing for them, or, well, not for them so much as things changing for people’s attitudes–

Yeah.

In terms of sectarianism.

Yeah, it’s interesting, it’s an interesting situation at the minute because obviously the sectarianism’s still there, but it doesn’t manifest in the same way that it did during the Troubles.

Yeah.

And you still visit Northern Ireland pretty regularly?

Yeah, I still, I was there last year in September time, yeah.

Is it mainly sort of Fermanagh that you still go to, or do you go to other parts?

Yeah, uh huh, well, I’ve been, I’ve been down to the South a few times. I’ve been to Dublin and I’ve been to Kerry and I’ve been down, mostly, you know, well, I’ve been, I’ve been to Dublin a couple of times socially, but I’ve been also down the South to, when my nieces were younger, with my sister, to Irish dancing competitions, I’ve been to, I’ve been to Donegal a few times, you know, to a couple of concerts and things like that, you know, so.

What, what, would they have been, like, sort of traditional Irish concerts?

Well, my friend sings in a, my friend sings in a choir and she wa-, they were actually, the choir was asked to do a fundraising for the hospice in Donegal, but, oh Letterkenny it was actually, but no, I mean, well, yeah, country music more, not so much the traditional music in that sense, but more the country music, people like Nathan Carter and, well, I hesitate to say Danny O’Donnell cos I don’t like him, but him [laughs].

[laughs] Fair enough, yeah.

[laughs] And I remember being asked to go to one of his concerts and I said no, I said no [laughs].

That’s scandalous, as an Irish person, not to like Daniel O’Donnell.

Och he’s a nice enough, he’s a nice enough man, but my goodness, I hate it, it’d drive you mad, I’d rather go to a Van Morrison concert.

Yeah, I don’t blame you on that one, so does, does Northern Ireland or Ireland feel like, kind of like a home at all, like some kind of second home, or would–?

I’m very comfortable when I go, yeah, I’m very comfortable when I go there, I just feel, the funny thing was whenever I was younger and we would be home, you know, the cousins would say it’s lovely to see you home, they would always talk about it, you know, and they’ll still say when are you coming home, Jane, you know.

That’s interesting.

So it’s, it’s, it’s kind of, you know, to them because I suppose I was born in Ireland and to them they see my identity as Irish and, you know, I’m just away, I’m coming home at some point, you know.

Would you ever consider going to live there?

[pauses] Well, I did, I did at one point think about it, but I thought, you know, my kind of, all my connections are here, and I think, you know, much as I would probably be comfortable enough and, you know, would be quite happy, I think because of the bulk of my connections are here and it’s not so remote here, you know, it’s quite remote where I am in, in Northern Ireland, I’d need to move into the town, if truth be told I’m more of, I’m more of a city person than a country person [laughs].

Yeah, me too [laughs].

You know, it’s just I’m more used to it, you know, having the convenience of everything that a town can offer you.

Yeah, no, I get that for sure, but it’s nice, nice to be able to visit for sure.

Oh yeah, it’s lovely and I mean, it’s lovely to have that rural situation for a week or two weeks, you know, and, and just enjoy, you know, the greenery and things like that, but then there’s times when you just want to be out, you know, have the convenience of being able to go out and, I mean, there’s a cinema, a theatre or something like that locally, you know, coffee shop.

Oh yeah, do you still get the boat over or would you fly these days?

No, latterly I’ve always flown, you just fly into, we either fly into the George Best Airport or we fly into Aldergrove.

Yeah, mm hmm.

You know, did toy with flying down South a wee, well, I’ve flown, I’ve, I have gone via Dublin a couple of times as well, you know.

Just a bit of a longer journey up I suppose.

Uh huh, yeah.

Yeah, listen, that’s, that’s been really interesting. I think I’ve kind of got through most of the stuff on my questions sheet, question sheet, yeah. I don’t know if there’s anything else you wanted to add, or anything we haven’t talked about that you wanted to talk about, or think is important, or anything at all?

No, no, I think, I think I’ve told you almost everything about, you know, my experience in terms of Ireland. What, what are you hoping to, what, what are you, what’s the imp-, the impact of your research? Is it to see if coming from Northern Ireland or coming from that Irish background has made people, you know, reflect on the divisions?

Yeah, I think, I think that’s, yeah, that’s actually a really good, good way of putting it. I suppose the rationale for it was that most of the research that’s been done about the Troubles and the conflict and divisions has been done within Northern Ireland, so we kind of wanted to look at it from the perspective of migration and people who’ve left and see how moving to a different place has aff-, changed people’s perspective, or how it’s aff-, you know, affected their, their views on, on the conflict and also, you know, people like yourself who, [01:06:04] I don’t know if you would identify as a second-generation or not, given that you were, but people who’ve grown up in parts of, other parts of the UK, how, how they’ve maintained connections with Northern Ireland as well, so.

I would say, just going by my nieces and nephews, they’re interested, but they’re not, you know, they don’t have the same pull, they don’t have the same interest as myself or my siblings because it doesn’t mean the same to them, you know, they’ve been over with their parents, but it’s, I think as the generations move on, you know, they sort of kind of, you know, the connection dissipates.

Yeah, and you kind of hinted at that with, by saying that they would identify more as Scottish than Irish.

Definitely, yes, uh huh, yeah, I definitely do say that that would be the case with my siblings who were born in Scotland and definitely that my nieces and nephews, very much so.

Out of interest, were you the only one of your siblings who was born in Ireland, or–?

No, I have a brother that was born there as well, but he was, he was six weeks when he came, we came over.

Oh okay, yeah, so and the rest of them were born in Scotland.

Yeah.

Yeah, okay, do you have any memories of those, I suppose you would have been so young you probably wouldn’t really remember?

Oh no, I do, I do remember, well, we lived with my granny and my uncle and, well, we lived in the home place, which was my granny’s and my uncle stayed in it and it was very rural, as I say, everybody, you know, everybody used to go in and out everybody else’s houses, you know, everybody would what they call ceilidh with one another.

Yeah.

You know, there used to be, it’s been closed down now, but there used to be a railway line and we lived alongside the railway line, there used to be a railway line that used to run from Enniskillen to Bundoran or somewhere in the South anyway, Sligo, Sligo, but it was closed, so they lifted all that away, but yeah, I mean, I can remember going to church and I can remember the big long walk out to the, to the, to the chapel and everybody meeting and congregating afterwards, in their own little community, but at that point in time I didn’t realise it was just the one community, if you know what I mean.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Well, I suppose you wouldn’t when you’re that young, you know.

Uh huh, yeah, and even as a young girl going backwards and forwards, I didn’t realise that, you know, everybody I met came from the same community.

Yeah, yeah, for sure, no, you were, yeah, cos you were saying about, you kind of only developed that awareness when you were a bit older.

Yeah, uh huh, I would say as I got into my teens.

Yeah, I suppose that’s kind of when you form your sort of social and political awareness a bit more, just generally.

Yeah, and you’re kind of going out, you know, socialising, you know, and you’re starting to go to the dancing and things like that and going to clubs, when you were young, and meeting people from a different background. I can always remember, this has nothing to do with Ireland, but I, well, I suppose it has, I can always remember when I first started working and I worked alongside a girl who I was very friendly with and she had a boyfriend who gave her a cross and chain, and she gave it to me and I said to her you can’t give me your boyfriend’s present and she said I can, she says, because, she says, my father’s an Orangeman, she said, and if I bring that into the house, she said, she said, he’ll throw it in the bin, something to that effect, so I laughed because I knew both her and her mum worked in beside me as well and they were really nice, and she said oh, she said he’s a rip-roaring Orangeman, she said he’s got King Billy up above the mantelpiece and I didn’t even know who King Bi-, King Billy was at that point in time [laughs]. I know now.

Oh yeah, we all do.

But that was the only, that and, I kind of think that was my kind of realisation that, you know, people did have strong feelings one way or the other, you know, even in Scotland.

And how old would you have been then?

I was sixteen.

Yeah, oh okay, right, but yeah, no, it is interesting how those sort of aspects of Irish history have been sort of taken for, and people feel very strongly about them in Scotland as well.

Yeah, well, I certainly, as I say, I never really felt very, maybe it was a bit in our, you know, our upbringing and maybe because my father was from Northern Ireland we didn’t really emphasise any of it, but I certainly know that in, in some of my friends’ families, where they’re from, and a Southern Irish background, there can be a wee bit of strong sectarianism.

Right, okay, well, that’s interesting.

Narrowly, though, rather less so in my background.

Okay [laughs], alright, listen, that’s, that’s been really interesting, so I will, I will end the recording.